I think Scotland is ready for Independence

[Alastair]

I've spent a fair bit of time looking at the Independence issue and I'm now frankly in no doubt that Scotland can go it alone. I will however confess that the SNP is not my choice to run an Independent Scotland but I do support then to get Independence.

From all that I have seen I've been personally convinced that we are a net contributor to the UK in general yet we have always been told we are subsidised by the UK.

When it comes to the EU we not only send them a lot more money that we receive but they have been the cause of losing us some 100,000 jobs. I can see absolutely no benefit in Scotland gaining independence only to give that away to the EU.

I am also perfectly certain that we can end up with better standards of living as an Independent country.

To me the only problem is that I don't believe the SNP have the depth of knowledge to make the right decisions for the country after Independence. Should we vote for Independence then there is no incentive for the rest of the UK to give us any slack at all when it comes to getting our share of the UK assets. I'm also sure there will be great delays in getting our hands on the oil and gas reserves. There will also be hard negotiations on our borders with England.

Having read what I can from the SNP and also the SDA I have to say I have been persuaded that the SDA has been far more open on how they would run an independent Scotland. They have and are publishing papers on the way forward for an independent Scotland whereas the SNP have not. When it comes to the world market the SNP in my view have clearly little understanding of what it will take to operate on the world stage. There flat our statements of we need to be in the EU, out of Nato, remove all nuclear assets, etc are out of step with practical diplomacy.

Negotiating our way to independence is going to be a lengthy process.

I also feel the SNP are running the country like a dictator. You really can't have a conversatiuon with them as they stick to a standard party line. Ask an SNP MSP a question and it's actually more likely to be ignored than it is to be answered.

Let's look at the very recent council elections. It was very obvious that they expected to win Glasgow but instead were well defeated. They've done this before in the last Westminster elections where they did a very poor job of fighting for more members of parliament. They were caight well off the boil in those and also in the council elections. And what's even more concerning is that only around 30% of people bothered to turn out and vote.

And I really have no idea where Labour or the Lib-Dems are standing on independence. All of this makes me certain that should we gain independence then we need a whole new political system in Scotland. Right now if we do have independence then that means England will be a permanent Conservative country. It's always been the Scottish Labout MP's that have enabled Labour to stay in power for so long.

So overall I can see that Scotland is financially able to stand on its own and do very well indeed. It's the political process that concerns me more than anything else.

However all of that said I don't have a vote and I am now a Canadian citizen so what does it really matter what I think? That said as my site is to do with the history of Scotland and the Scots at home and abroad I do have an interest in trying to document this effort to regain independence from an historical perspective.

So I say yes to independence but then let's vote in the SDA to run our country as I believe they have incredibly good ideas on how to run the country.

I'd also invite people of any persuasion to get involved in the debate here and Iwill continue to bring you information on the debate as I read about it in the media and elsewhere.

Alastair

[sandyc]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Hi Al, I am not sure where you are getting your economics information to support independence.
I agree that the SNP is very dictatorial and never give any straight answers.
Only 30% vote in local elections because were are over burdened by government at all levels and local Gov't is not perceived as all that important. Combine this with the election process which is not "first past the post" and many people have no idea how it works or what it means.
Local Gov't elections often are seen as the opportunity to punish the parties in power - hence the swing to Labour again (of course the SNP will deny that there has been a swing away). All that has really happened is that a bunch of people have been elected, but in many places there has been no clear winner and there will be coalitions of all sorts of oddfellows just to get into some sort of power.
The Scottish people are fed up with all these strutting peacocks but of course we only get the politicians we deserve.
I have not seen anything from the SDA apart from here on ES so I doubt that they will provide any feasible alternative to the status quo parties.
Give the recent elections in France and Greeece there is no way we should be anywhere near the Eu and all its problems.
There has been recent Act passed in Westminster that provides for more Scottish tax raising powers. I was in Canada when that happened but in discussions I cannot find too many people here who know anything about it.
Apathy will create the schism and we should all fear that.

Sandy

[Alastair]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

The one thing I liked about the SDA which actually got my attention was the fact they were questioning whether we should stay with the party system of government. They are also questioning politicians qualifications for the jobs they hold in government. I just liked their attitude on many things as they fit well with my thinking. Now of course whether you agree with my thinking is whole other issue <grin>

Alastair

[Glesgalass]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

The one thing I liked about the SDA which actually got my attention was the fact they were questioning whether we should stay with the party system of government. They are also questioning politicians qualifications for the jobs they hold in government. I just liked their attitude on many things as they fit well with my thinking. Now of course whether you agree with my thinking is whole other issue <grin>

Alastair

What other system of Government were you thinking of....a dictatorship? I don't know that I'd worry too much about a politicians qualifications as we all know it's the civil servants who run the country anyway.
I do agree with you about the SNP. I've tried for donkeys years to get an answer out of them about what they will do if they do manage to get independence. Remember that they are a nationalist party which is exactly what the Nazi party was. My father was always very suspicious of the SNP.

Elda

[Alastair]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Mind here Elda I'm really saying that I believe Scotland could survive and prosper as an independent nation. That of course doesn't mean it would. That thus means it's down to the local Scots to make that decision as ex-pats don't have any say in it.

My becoming a Canadian citizen really means I'm out of it and whatever Scotland decides won't impact myself although I'll always be an interested observer.

What I've been trying to do with this forum is to post any information that I see that could impact one way or another on the decision process in the hope it might help some people to make their decision. Also, from an historical perspective, I need to document this whole process as part of my work on the history of Scotland and the Scots. That after all is what Electric Scotland does.

I am hoping at some point the SNP will make their case for Independence and the opposing parties will also present their case and I will document that on the site. Then I'll try and run commentary on the process towards the vote and report the result. So we have history in the making and it should be a very interesting time for historians to pour over.

At this time, to my knowledge, only the SDA have a practical idea of how to run an independent Scotland and I've enjoyed reading their views. The more I've read the more challenges I see for Scotland if it goes the independent route. So winning a vote is really just the first of many steps needed to take us independent and the challenges are huge.

However if Scotland goes that route then documenting the process to actual independence is going to be a most interesting process. And again I would both need and want to document that.

Alastair

[sandyc]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Hi Elda,
they do regard themselves as Social Democrats. I don suggest that are in any way like the Nazis, but it would be nice to get some "real" information from them.
Alex Salmond was an economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland and also a "tipster" so that does not make me feel too confident in him.

"Interesting times" is an absolute understatement, Alastair is correct to want to document what is happening.

Sandy

[Caledonian]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

I am pleased to see that you are moving towards the view that Scotland could stand on its own as an independent country, Alastair. I hoped that you might also moderate your opinion that the Scots are too stupid, too ignorant or do not “have the depth of knowledge to make the right decisions for the country”.

People have differing views on the question of Scottish independence, and on the issues and the implications. They are all welcome and entitled to their views. What cannot be acceptable is when people calling for a debate and seeking clarification of the issues should at the same time expound ill-considered views, opinions and objections and demean those who would engage with them in debate as being incapable of having sufficient nonce to do so. It should not come as a surprise or a disappointment that the Scottish Nationalists, the Scottish government, or the Scottish people should respond negatively to, or ignore altogether, such people. I would be happy enough to take part in the debate on your forum but not if my views, those of like-minded Scots, and those of our government is to be mocked and insulted, or considered not to have the requisite depth of knowledge even before they are heard.

The first point to make and necessary to grasp is that the process of realising the long held aim of an independent Scotland is just beginning to get under way in earnest. The SNP, who happen to be in government in Scotland for the first time ever with a majority and now in a position to accelerate their agenda, have published their proposals for getting that agenda under way.

In the document “YOUR SCOTLAND – YOUR REFERENDUM” the Scottish government spells out in language simple enough for even a thick Scotsman to understand what it is proposing.

It wishes to put to the Scottish people the following question:

“Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?”

It also states clearly enough the next step:

“If the people vote yes, the Scottish Government would negotiate with the UK and move to secure the transfer of sovereignty and powers to the people of Scotland.”

This means that the Scottish Government would begin negotiations with the Westminster Government to “secure the transfer of sovereignty and powers to the people of Scotland” They have not undertaken to negotiate with all and sundry, or to enter into a slanging match with those who would put themselves up as the fount of all knowledge on all sorts of obstacles. I have sufficient confidence in the process and those directing it to appreciate that any misgivings I may have will also surely have been considered, analysed and addressed by them. I also understand that should my misgivings actually turn out to have credibility there will be plenty of time to address them.

It would hardly be advantageous to Scotland if the SNP were to spell out in detail their negotiating position or their stance on all the vagaries of the various issues in advance of those negotiations even beginning. Nobody is asking Westminster to spell out their position or what they will or will not allow or resist, can or cannot do. When those negotiations get underway and before any final decisions are taken the people of Scotland will have ample opportunity to get involved, give their verdict and accept or reject any resultant deal.

Hardly had the ink dried on what has already been proposed before the Parliament in London and its Scottish apologists began to shout foul play. First they said that the Scottish government had no legal authority to ask such a question, and even if it turned out that they did then the English government should pick the wording of the question to ask and when to ask it. Then an English electoral commission should oversee the whole business. Shades of Edward the First or what?

A consultation process is presently under way in Scotland and everyone is invited to submit their views and/or their misgivings. The results of that consultation will be published and any points raised will be addressed once the consultation period ends, which I believe is the end of May. There will then be plenty of time until 2014 to pore over, discuss and pontificate over the results of that consultation. So there is no truth in the assertion that something underhand is going on or that the people of Scotland are being kept in the dark. Having been around for decades, in government since 2007, I cannot understand how anyone can say that they do not know what the SNP stand for, what its views are on the major issues confronting the country.

The SDA, Scottish Democratic Alliance, are basically a talking shop. They call themselves a “think tank”. They are not a political party, not even activists, and profess no desire to stand in elections. They neither desire or welcome outside views or opinions and their publications are merely statements of their collective views. (Talk about a dictatorship).

Another “collective” whose views may be worth perusing and are also not far behind current government thinking on some relevant issues are “Siol nan Gaidheal” at; www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org

Does anyone suppose for one minute that the views of such bodies which support the argument for independence is lost on, or has not been considered by the powers that be. They are just being cautious and could not possibly espouse them as comprehensively as those bodies are doing at this stage?

As for the EU? Scotland, as part of the UK is already in the EU. A simple change from being represented by a minister from Westminster to one from Holyrood and a re-arrangement of any Scottish contribution should not be too difficult to negotiate and agree on. Hardly rocket science.

We seem to be encouraged to succumb to the Glasgow view of the EU. For the past 30 odd years development grants and funds from the EU have made a vast difference to conditions in the rural areas of Scotland. The money went directly to those rural areas and without it they would have suffered another Clearance. MSPs and MPs, from Glasgow specifically, have been trying for years to transfer control of those funds to Edinburgh or London so that they could determine where most of the money could be diverted to and spent, ideally on Glasgow.

“Remember that they are a nationalist party which is exactly what the Nazi party was”. And “I don’t suggest that they are in any way like the Nazis” What comparison are we being invited to remember? What exactly is being suggested in such a statement?

As for NATO? There are several countries in NATO that do not have nuclear weapons. Wanting to have those weapons moved away from within an hours’ drive of the most densely populated part of Scotland is not unreasonable.

I’m not sure where you are getting the local election results from. The facts are that the SNP did better in terms of local councillors, they have 424, Labour have 394, Conservatives have 115, Lib-Dems have 71. Labour has control of 4 councils, all in Glasgow, a city where first and second generation ‘immigrants’ are to be found in more numbers than elsewhere in Scotland. The SNP control two, one in Angus and one in Dundee. Much as I admire the fair city of Glasgow and I’m sure it has many fine burgers, but I would hesitate to hail it as the bastion of Scottish opinion. Trumpeting the retention of 4 enclaves in Glasgow as a Labour triumph in Scotland is risible. It might be worth mentioning in passing that it was certain individuals in Glasgow who delivered up for English silver another Scottish freedom fighter from another age, William Wallace.

It can hardly come as a shock to anyone that after independence the Labour, Tory and Lib Dem parties as presently constituted will become extinct in Scotland. Members, activists and members of either party in either parliament of those parties will have to re-invent themselves as Scottish parties or perish. I would suggest that for many of them the precarious nature of their own positions are of more concern to them than Scotland’s best interests.

[Glesgalass]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

My question of the SNP is, " What will happen after independence has been achieved?" Will a general election be called? Will the traditional political parties and independents be allow to stand? Or will there only be SNP candidates the way it happened in Germany and communist countries.
It's a simple question which, to date, no member of the SNP has answered.

Elda

[Alastair]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

I don't mind a debate on all this and views from all sides are welcome as far as I am concerned.

However in any debate people will have strong opinions and it can get ugly. Over some 25 years I can tell you that any forum that is about Politics and Religion are always the ones that cause the most problems.

As to your points. The SDA is registered as a political party. The SDA has said it fully supports the SNP in the fight for independence but makes it clear that once independence is won they fully intend to compete with the SNP in an independent Scotland. All of the SDA's work to date is about how to run an independent Scotland. I happen to agree with their views but note for them to come into effect we need to be an independent country.

As to the EU. It is my view that the EU is not good for Scotland and the funds to the EU are much greater than the EU funds to Scotland. EU policies have devastated the Fishing Industry in Scotland with an estimated loss of some 100,000 jobs with most of them being in rural areas.

As to the elections. The SNP have done their spin as one would expect any political party to do. Fact is they were very confident of winning Glasgow and made no secret of that desire. The fact they didn't win was I hope a bit of a wake up call to them. You can't take people for granted.

As to nuclear weapons. I have no problem in getting rid of them but I do believe that some time needs to be given to allow an orderly transfer to England.

I might add that I have always believed Scotland should be an independent country. For some 15 years I have hosted and run the "Flag in the Wind" web site for the Scots Independent Newspaper (Scotland's oldest political newspaper having started in 1928). For some 8 years I also published the site for them but on my last visit to Scotland I trained up Tricia, the then Chairman's daughter, to publish it but I still stand in when she goes on holiday.

And when it comes to - do we have the right people to run the independent country I still say we have challenges ahead. Despite the SNP being in power we have never had to consider global issues and diplomacy but now we're going to have to. We simply lack the knowledge right now so after independence we're going to have to use all of our people's skills to make Scotland a success. That's actually a huge shift from fighting for an independent country. And I would ask the question would we want the SNP running an independent Scotland and that will depend on what your views are whether they are right wing, left wing or independent. But that argument will have to wait on the decision on the referendum. It is somewhat pointless to discuss that until after the result is known but by then there will be no turning back.

I have also made the point that whatever the decision the Scots make it will have no impact on myself as I now live in Canada and have no intention of returning to Scotland. However as a historian and one that runs the largest Scottish history site I do see it as my job to document the process. I will endeavor to be as even handed as possible. As it happens this forum is an excellent way of documenting this and seeing the different points of view.

Alastair

[Caledonian]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

My question of the SNP is, " What will happen after independence has been achieved?" Will a general election be called? Will the traditional political parties and independents be allow to stand? Or will there only be SNP candidates the way it happened in Germany and communist countries.
It's a simple question which, to date, no member of the SNP has answered.

Elda

To answer your question and I am not replying on behalf of the SNP here, nor do I want to suggest that my views are necessarily those of the SNP, far less their policy.

After the referendum, if the result is YES to the question of commencing negotiations for an independent Scotland, negotiations will begin. That bit we know because it is what the SNP government is already committed to. During this period Scotland will continue to be a part of the UK and the political parties as presently constituted will continue to have legitimacy. I would hope they would participate in those negotiations positively, respecting the will of the people, and not negatively throwing up obstacles and hampering progress.

When the negotiations with the UK parliament are concluded the people of Scotland will have the opportunity to accept or reject the resultant outcome. Acceptance would trigger independence. The Scottish parliament would then be independent of the UK. Members and parties of that parliament should also be independent of UK-wide parties. Surely this stands to reason. An independent country’s parliament could not have parties or representatives in it who owe their allegiance to parties of what will by then have become a foreign country.

Although Glasgow sticks like glue to its Labour roots the rest of the country has long ago severed such close ties. Labour is no longer the party of the working man or woman. Its whole raison d’être now is to pander to the comfortable middle class, what they call ‘Middle England’, and any benefits accruing to Scotland is purely incidental. The present Labour party in Scotland will need to re-invent itself as an independent Scottish Labour movement and stand for office on policies of importance to the people of Scotland, not what suits ‘Middle England’ Policies that may be good for the population of Kent or London, do not necessarily suit the people or the conditions in Scotland. The Tories and the Lib-Dems, already virtually extinct in Scotland, will likewise need to reform themselves into a separate entity from the UK wide parties of those names. Independents, as the name implies, are already independent, and Scottish Independents would hardly be considered as affiliated to England in any way, even at present.

I do not understand this obsession with 1930s Germany. There is no comparison. You are succumbing to the scare stories put about by people who have little else to put forward as a constructive argument.

[Caledonian]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

I don't mind a debate on all this and views from all sides are welcome as far as I am concerned.

However in any debate people will have strong opinions and it can get ugly. Over some 25 years I can tell you that any forum that is about Politics and Religion are always the ones that cause the most problems.

As to your points. The SDA is registered as a political party. The SDA has said it fully supports the SNP in the fight for independence but makes it clear that once independence is won they fully intend to compete with the SNP in an independent Scotland. All of the SDA's work to date is about how to run an independent Scotland. I happen to agree with their views but note for them to come into effect we need to be an independent country.

This is what the SDA say on their web-site:

“The Scottish Democratic Alliance (SDA) is a new political group dedicated to preparing Scotland for Independence. At present we operate as a Think Tank working to develop practical policies for Scotland's people and communities which will provide real benefits and also enable us all to have more say in our own futures. We seek to give all Scots a chance to contribute to Scotland's future”.

Not only are they not a political party they do not believe in political parties. Their preferred form of representation is that every grouping and every constituency should elect its own independent representative based on his/her ability and answerable to those who elected him/her and no-one else.

They are registered with the Electoral Commission but that could be in order to qualify for grants to finance their activities. In any case, I agree with much of what they say about Scottish Independence and, more importantly, they agree with the SNP and its aims.

As to the EU. It is my view that the EU is not good for Scotland and the funds to the EU are much greater than the EU funds to Scotland. EU policies have devastated the Fishing Industry in Scotland with an estimated loss of some 100,000 jobs with most of them being in rural areas.

It’s easy to blame the EU for everything that’s gone wrong with UK and Scottish industry. Fishing is highlighted because it resonates with the Scots. In England its farming. UK ministers sacrificed those industries in Europe for favourable concessions for the financial services industry and the City of London. The Islandic and Norwegian governments got favourable deals for their fishing industries. Was it Europe’s fault that UK ministers came away with nothing? Is it the UK’s global diplomatic negotiating skills that we should strive to emulate?

As to the elections. The SNP have done their spin as one would expect any political party to do. Fact is they were very confident of winning Glasgow and made no secret of that desire. The fact they didn't win was I hope a bit of a wake up call to them. You can't take people for granted.

All political parties go all out to win elections and gain seats and they play up their chances. Likewise they are all disappointed when they don’t win and they try to down play the loss. I’m not sure if this trait has to be seen as particularly negative in the SNP.

As to nuclear weapons. I have no problem in getting rid of them but I do believe that some time needs to be given to allow an orderly transfer to England.

I am not aware of any suggestions that they should be withdrawn overnight.

I might add that I have always believed Scotland should be an independent country. For some 15 years I have hosted and run the "Flag in the Wind" web site for the Scots Independent Newspaper (Scotland's oldest political newspaper having started in 1928). For some 8 years I also published the site for them but on my last visit to Scotland I trained up Tricia, the then Chairman's daughter, to publish it but I still stand in when she goes on holiday.

All good stuff. I have said it before and I’ll say it again if you want, your work on this forum is impressive and the time and commitment has to be admired and respected. I do not question your credentials, only that they should not entitle you to insult the intelligence of the rest of us mere mortals even though some of us might deserve it.

And when it comes to - do we have the right people to run the independent country I still say we have challenges ahead. Despite the SNP being in power we have never had to consider global issues and diplomacy but now we're going to have to. We simply lack the knowledge right now so after independence we're going to have to use all of our people's skills to make Scotland a success. That's actually a huge shift from fighting for an independent country. And I would ask the question would we want the SNP running an independent Scotland and that will depend on what your views are whether they are right wing, left wing or independent. But that argument will have to wait on the decision on the referendum. It is somewhat pointless to discuss that until after the result is known but by then there will be no turning back.

I’m not sure what global diplomatic endeavors we are incapable of or which ones we can presently hold up as shining examples of how it should be done. I’m sure that there are Scots involved in many of the diplomatic initiatives currently engaged in by the UK government. Indeed, and this should please our friend with the Nazi Germany fetish, I am not aware of any global adventures presently being considered by the SNP.

I have also made the point that whatever the decision the Scots make it will have no impact on myself as I now live in Canada and have no intention of returning to Scotland. However as a historian and one that runs the largest Scottish history site I do see it as my job to document the process. I will endeavor to be as even handed as possible. As it happens this forum is an excellent way of documenting this and seeing the different points of view.

Historians, as a rule, generally record and opine on historic events. There are also people, wrong to call them historians, who attempt to influence events. In your capacity as a historian, I’m not sure how you can claim to be impartial when you allow your subjective opinions to dominate most of your posts on this particular subject. This ‘knocking’ of the SNP and casting doubts on the abilities of the people of Scotland smacks of bias, in my opinoin, anyway.

Future generations of Scots will either look back and think themselves accursed that they were not a part of this historic moment, or they will curse us for failing them, again.

P.S. I,m allowed to be biased by the way. Being an argumentative Highlander, a rare breed.

[sandyc]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

I think there is a possible situation that has not been spoken about here. 2014 will be the end of the current Scottish Government's term. The way things are looking the referendum will not be held until then. It would be interesting if the referendum vote to a "non leading question" is "yes" but the election does not return the SNP to power.
BTW in your prior posts you refer to "English" organisations, they are UK institutions and will remain so as long as we part of the UK.

I cannot agree more with your views on the current Labour Party.

We all have our biases, even 'respected' historians. Nothing wrong with biases as they are usually pretty self evident. I am biased against Independence but respect the right to have the desire and the discussion. Much is wrong with our current political situation and maybe this will help to concentrate the minds of the silent majority and get them out to vote.

Sandy

[Alastair]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

I have to say that I think voting should be mandatory. I don't have any problem in having an extra voting option of "Not interested in Voting".

That 30% turnout for the council elections just shows the disconnect with politics.

Alastair

[Caledonian]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

If I refer to English organisations then that is what they are. You do not need to tell me that we are presently the UK, try telling it to the UK population south of Berwick. If you are a Scotsman and you believe that you have equal status in the UK in their eyes then you are sadly deluding yourself.

The referendum will be held before the present parliament ends. A yes vote in that referendum will commit whoever is elected after it to honour the wishes of the Scottish people, which would be to enter into negotiations for an independent Scotland. Any candidate standing will have to state clearly that he or she has no intention of honouring the referendum result. If a majority is then elected who can overturn the referendum result then God help us all.

There is a lot to be said for mandatory voting. Having the option you suggest on the ballot paper would still require you to go and cast your vote. If you go anyway surely you may as well vote yes or no. Anyway the UK parliament has ruled that the rules for the referendum cannot be changed. Haggling over such matters is a distraction, raised for that purpose.

The turnout at a council election is different, always has been, to that of a general election and definitely to a referendum like this. There was no dispute about honouring the result or the turnout of the referendum on devolution, why raise unsubstatiated objections about this one. Always with the negative?

So far the called for debate that is meant to be a historical record on this forum consists of someone warning of the danger of Scotland becoming a Nazi state, someone who disassociates himself from Scotland and considers the population and the government as inferior in intellect to any other country who values their independence, and someone who focuses on the semantics and ignores the issues. Tell me we are going to raise the level of the debate.

[1938 Observer]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Another important section of the debate.



Can Future Scotland Defend Itself?


Wednesday, May 16, 2012

Source: BFBS



The shape of defence capabilities in an independent Scotland is to be discussed at a conference.

Former serving soldiers will be joined by academics to consider the implications of leaving the UK in a referendum due to be held in late 2014.

Among the speakers will be Stuart Crawford, who retired as a lieutenant colonel in the Royal Tank Regiment. Working with economist Richard Marsh, he suggests Scotland could defend itself with a slimmed down military, making savings worth about £1.3 billion.

The Scottish forces would not be able to operate on the same global scale and would have an army about one-third the size of Denmark's.

Other speakers at the event, hosted by The Scotsman newspaper in Edinburgh, include former SAS deputy commander Clive Fairweather and Ministry of Defence adviser Professor Hew Strachan.

Mr Crawford said: "We decided to approach this by asking first what the armed forces is for, what you need to fulfil the purpose and how much that would cost."

He said other approaches were flawed: "You wouldn't look into building hospitals just to give doctors jobs."

His model would include a navy of about 20 to 25 ships. The air force would have around 60 aircraft but no Typhoon or Tornado fast jets. The army would have an HQ and two brigades but no tanks or heavy artillery. It would have between 10,000 and 12,500 personnel, which is about one-third the size of the Danish army but larger than the Irish military.

Mr Crawford said it would be up to politicians to decide whether to spent the extra money on building up the military or using the money in other areas such as schools and hospitals. He said a lack of stated foreign policy objectives meant much of the model was created "in a vacuum".

Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said the country's "proud military history" would be diminished if voters back independence.