I think Scotland is ready for Independence

[Glesgalass]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

I have to say that I think voting should be mandatory. I don't have any problem in having an extra voting option of "Not interested in Voting".

That 30% turnout for the council elections just shows the disconnect with politics.

Alastair

Yep Alastair, voting is compulsory in Australia. You get fined if you don't vote. The only way around it is to never register to vote but even then you can get caught out by random door to door checks of house residents. The only exceptions are people who are not of sound mind.

Elda

[sandyc]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

If I refer to English organisations then that is what they are. You do not need to tell me that we are presently the UK, try telling it to the UK population south of Berwick. If you are a Scotsman and you believe that you have equal status in the UK in their eyes then you are sadly deluding yourself.
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The referendum will be held before the present parliament ends. A yes vote in that referendum will commit whoever is elected after it to honour the wishes of the Scottish people, which would be to enter into negotiations for an independent Scotland. Any candidate standing will have to state clearly that he or she has no intention of honouring the referendum result. If a majority is then elected who can overturn the referendum result then God help us all.



So far the called for debate that is meant to be a historical record on this forum consists of someone warning of the danger of Scotland becoming a Nazi state, someone who disassociates himself from Scotland and considers the population and the government as inferior in intellect to any other country who values their independence, and someone who focuses on the semantics and ignores the issues. Tell me we are going to raise the level of the debate.

[B]Now who is denegrating who..[/B
Again some, perhaps many may disagree with you

I see that you are trying to appear reasonable but, sorry, you are just as biased as anyone else and certainly appear to exhibit the SNP cultural distaste for providing an answer that will not satisfy your beliefs. I know that is not totally accurate but thought I should continue to let you believe that I am a subjugated Scot living in the belief that the UK is not good for me...

[Caledonian]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

1938 Observer,

You have pasted an article, source BFBS. Would that be the British Forces Broadcasting Service? I’m not sure if you have a question or if you want people to comment on the article.

Scotland’s financial contribution to UK defence is estimated to be about £3.5 Bilion of which just over half is spent in or on Scotland. In terms of human contribution I believe we did more than our fair share.

Recently there was an incident at Glasgow Airport where but for the action of a brave individual there would have been disastrous consequences. One of Scotland’s most strategic resources outside of military establishments left to the equivalent of care in the community.

Two months ago half a billion pound contract for Naval tankers awarded to South Korea. Where are Glasgow’s Labour stalwarts? Why are they not shouting in Westminster in the interests of the jobs of their constituents on the Clyde? It’s sick-making.

Defence issues are not devolved matters for the Scottish parliament. The Scottish government and the First Minister have no authority to make, or change policy on issues that are not devolved, doing so would be breaking the law.

A Scottish Naval force would surely be for defending Scottish interests. One of the major Scottish interests would be the oil installations in the North Sea. Who was the brilliant strategist who decided that the Clyde estuary and surrounding lochs were the ideal location to base the Navy in Scotland, a day, or longer steaming distance round the coast from our vital assets at risk?

UK Defence policy at present is just an extension of the US military machine. Outside our territorial waters a UK serviceman cannot tie his shoelaces without US approval. Our forces are supplied mostly by equipment, down to the stationary used for writing home, from abroad, mainly the US.

Are you happy with the current defence strategy of the UK? What would you like to see?

The question being asked is why do we need armed forces for? The next question is what do we need to fulfil the requirements recognised by the answer to the first question?

Failing that, be warned, let a Sasunnach or a Fineach set foot on my croft uninvited and I’ll smack him silly with my copy of the Geneva Convention, or the gràp.


Sandy,

You appear to be suggesting to me that I should provide answers that do not satisfy my beliefs, in other words you want me to lie to you, or give you the answers that you want to hear or that suit your beliefs. I do not believe that the SNP, especially, are the only people in the world who have a distaste, culturally or otherwise, for providing answers that do not satisfy what they believe in. Surely that would be deceit.

If my answers do not suit you because they do not correspond with your beliefs, that’s fair enough. I can’t see how you can accuse me of wrongdoing for giving answers for no other reason than that I believe what I am saying, i.e., telling you the truth as I see it.

We’ve been lied to, cheated, even robbed, but subjugated, NEVER!!!!!

[sandyc]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Sandy,

You appear to be suggesting to me that I should provide answers that do not satisfy my beliefs, in other words you want me to lie to you, or give you the answers that you want to hear or that suit your beliefs. I do not believe that the SNP, especially, are the only people in the world who have a distaste, culturally or otherwise, for providing answers that do not satisfy what they believe in. Surely that would be deceit.

No I am not suggesting that you go against your beliefs. However, the SNP caucus appears unwilling to proved direct answers to many questions that I suggest are not to do with "beliefs"

If my answers do not suit you because they do not correspond with your beliefs, that’s fair enough. I can’t see how you can accuse me of wrongdoing for giving answers for no other reason than that I believe what I am saying, i.e., telling you the truth as I see it.
I have no problem with you stating your beliefs. I sometimes even state mine~~

We’ve been lied to, cheated, even robbed, but subjugated, NEVER!!!!!
Often many of the above by our own people

I guess I had better not step onto your croft, having been born in the Lowlands of Scotland, making me a Sassenach (sic).
Sandy

[Alastair]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

So are there any figures Elda for how people vote when it's compulsory? Like are there more spoiled papers? Is there any background on this? Like when was it made compulsory and what were the immediate results in the first election after it was made compulsory? I think this would be a very interesting information to know.

Alastair

[Caledonian]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Sandy,

Entertaining as it might be to debate semantics or subjective opinions of the perceived subliminal meanings of what is being said, it gets tiresome after a while.

You say that the SNP caucus “...appears unwilling to proved direct answers to many questions that I suggest are not to do with "beliefs". You do not say who this caucus is and I’m not sure if I should be included. You have not said what questions you asked that did not get answered.

The SNP, as far back as I can remember, have it as their primary objective to secure independence for Scotland. I’m not holding my breath but I don’t think you can pick holes in that statement.

It would also be fair to say that over the years there has been no shortage of commentary on what they would do if and when that objective was achieved. It would be reasonable to accept that going into the minutia of every eventuality could not be determined categorically without foreknowledge of what the prevailing conditions at the time of independence being achieved would be. An overview of the situation and the policies to deal with it is all that could be realistically offered, and so it was offered. Would you agree with that as a fair summary?

The electoral system imposed on Scotland by the devolution settlement was designed to prevent any one party from gaining an overall majority in the Scottish Parliament. There was nothing the SNP, or any other party in Scotland, could do about that, would you not agree?

Despite the above and in defiance of that electoral system the Scottish people did something the best brains in Westminster thought they had rendered impossible, they returned the SNP at the last election with an overwhelming majority.

For the first time ever a Scottish political party whose primary objective was independence for Scotland (The SNP) was in a position to pursue that objective and that is what they proceeded to do. Are you with me so far?

Now this is where anyone who has not been attentive or anyone too clever by half begins to lose the plot. It starts to get a bit complicated.

The Scottish government, of whatever colour, can only get involved in matters that the devolution settlement stipulates as being within their competence. Legislating for independence, or anything whatever to do with independence, is outside the devolved competences. The restrictions on the First Minister of Scotland are set out in the same laws. (Hence the hoo-haa down south about the legality of the steps already taken, organising the referendum). The legal argument here is; can a Scottish government ask a question of its own electorate? The Westminster position seems to be yes, but we’ll tell you what the question should be.

The SNP as a party can shout about independence till they are hoarse. The SNP as the Scottish Government and Alex Salmond as the First Minister of Scotland have to be more circumspect. They could be accused of breaking the law of the land. The other parties, bereft of any policies to improve the condition of the people of Scotland, are straining at the leash to find an excuse to wrongfoot the SNP.

Incidentally, one of the reasons why the central government, local councils, governmental departments, offices or boards cannot respond to requests to supply information or services for use by private concerns for commercial purposes, or to agree to have private concerns act as an agent on the government’s behalf, is because it is illegal to do so without the requisite contractual arrangements in place and agreement on the nature and extent of the service to be delivered and the consequences of failure to deliver.

Entering into commercial contracts, even negotiating to do so, with overseas, ‘foreign’, commercial concerns, while lack of funding is preventing ‘home’ institutions from doing the same job better, would be definitely breaking every rule in the book. It could even result in bringing down the government.

I hope that I have done enough to explain the constraints that the government faces. However, I am not hampered by any such constraints, I am quite happy to have a go at answering any question you put, if I can. It would be beneficial to us both, and to anyone else who’s interested, to pick and peck at the answer then and perhaps come up with better answers.

Only you haven’t asked a question yet.

PS. Re compulsory voting: You say that claiming to be mad is a get out. That’s Glasgow sorted!!!

[Alastair]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Just as a matter of interest I can actually add sub forums to this forum should there be a need for more detailed discussions on individual topics.

And purely as a matter of interest the SDA state that the rule of law states that Scotland has the right to seek the views of the people in Scotland. This comes from the United Nations and this agreement has been ratified between all member countries. The SDA has already written to the United Nations and other governmental organisations in the world pointing this out and asking them to keep an eye out on the situation regarding a Scottish referendum.

Alastair

[Caledonian]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Just as a matter of interest I can actually add sub forums to this forum should there be a need for more detailed discussions on individual topics.

And purely as a matter of interest the SDA state that the rule of law states that Scotland has the right to seek the views of the people in Scotland. This comes from the United Nations and this agreement has been ratified between all member countries. The SDA has already written to the United Nations and other governmental organisations in the world pointing this out and asking them to keep an eye out on the situation regarding a Scottish referendum.

Alastair

That’s the very thing Alastair, This is precisely what I have been attempting to explain, the Scottish government must have regard for the law, UK as well as international law, as it progresses in stages towards independence. This is why they are preparing for a referendum to ask the Scottish people for the mandate to proceed to the next stage which is starting negotiations, and why they can't give detailed policy statements as if independence is already a done deal and the committment to negotiate is hollow.

This is also why the Unionists are pushing for haste, in the hope that a slip up might leave the process falling foul of the law.

The UK is a member of the UN, I’m sure Whitehall is as familiar with international law as the SDA, and probably have already formulated devious schemes to thwart it. We would have been told by now, with unrestrained gloating, if Scotland were in contravention of any UK or international laws. It is obvious that the SNP is aware of the law as well, they have not deviated from it yet despite the provocation.

The thing about the SDA is that it can say things out loud without sparking off inter-governmental spats and legal shenanigans. We see already the legal ping-pong over the referendum issue and committees being set up to look into one thing after another, manned by idiots.

[1938 Observer]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

So are there any figures Elda for how people vote when it's compulsory? Like are there more spoiled papers? Is there any background on this? Like when was it made compulsory and what were the immediate results in the first election after it was made compulsory? I think this would be a very interesting information to know.

Alastair

Alastair,
You could probably go to the website of the Australian Electoral Commission to find statistics.
As Elda stated eyerbody is [or should be] on the Commonwealth and State Rolls, any vote that deviates from the correct format..e.g. numbered incorrectly, all details not completed etc., etc., is declared An Informal Vote commonly called a 'Donkey Vote' .... All these figures and percentages are promulgated when the election results are completed.

Gordon.




Australian Electoral Commission Everything you need to know. http://www.aec.gov.au/

[Glesgalass]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Alastair,
I should have listed another way around the compulsory voting and that is, as Gordon said, by deliberately voting informally. In actual fact, it is only compulsory to turn up and have your name crossed off which I think is rather silly as you are not asked to provide any identification. I could walk in and tell them I'm my next door neighbour.
I don't know when voting was made compulsory. It's been that way since I came here almost 41 years ago.
Even people in hospital and prison get to vote. But they still don't get 100%. I have no idea what percentage is the average. Must see if I can find out.

Elda

[Glesgalass]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Just looked up the information. Compulsory voting was introduced in Australia by the 1918 Electoral Act. In October 2004 (latest I could find) the voting turn out was 97.69% and informal votes were 5.2% for the House of Reps and 3.8% for the Senate.

Elda

[Alastair]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

I found a good explanation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting

On reading that I have to say I'm personally convinced there should be compulsory voting.

Thanks for bringing this up Elda.

Alastair

[Caledonian]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

Excuse me? Have I wandered onto the wrong thread? Cosy as it is to discuss the Australian electoral system, and I have rarely seen anything quite as exciting, what relevance has it got to the issue of Scottish independence, the subject of this thread?

Does it guarantee better candidates, or better government? Can it be relied on to produce the desired result in the forthcoming referendum?

If two candidates stand and there is a 100% turnout the candidate who wins is the one attracting over 50% of the votes cast. Result.

If two candidates stand and there is a 30% turnout the candidate who wins is the one attracting over 50% of the votes cast. Result. The choice of 70% who did not vote have to be divided proportionately to those that did, unless you are claiming that you know the way the majority of them would have voted one way or the other. You can’t claim that because you’ll never know.

If a yes or no question is asked, all else being equal, the same conclusions apply.

If an industry then grows up to thwart the system, where’s the benefit? What’s the point?

The SNP suggested that the voting age for the referendum should be lowered to 16 and that a degree of compulsion should be applied. This was poo-pooed by the UK parliament and the Electoral Commission, so it is unlikely that it will apply. The law would have to be changed at Westminster, or another referendum held on it, which would require yet more legislation. All of course outside the competence of the Scottish parliament. The process of getting to the ultimate goal could end up taking another 300 years.

I don’t want to be pedantic. Och go on then, I will. Such arguments distract from the real issues and those who cry out for a debate and complain that their questions remain unanswered have only themselves to blame if they do not ask the question or take no notice of the responses, or turn away from discussing the issues involved, or throw in diversions. This prevarication is exactly what the SNP have been accused of earlier on in this thread and interminably at every opportunity.

One of the main reasons, if not the main one, for seeking independence is to enable Scotland to determine its own future. This means an end of outside interference, telling us what’s good for us, from England or anywhere else. That includes the US and former colonies. I do not believe that it is the desire of the people of Scotland to get involved in the domestic politics of those countries, or advise them on how to run their own affairs. We desire equality not subservience.

[Alastair]

Re: I think Scotland is ready for Independence

I found it interesting to talk about the election process but agree that it doesn't move us on in the debate over independence. It is however one more item that an independent Scotland can consider.

Alastair